“It was a virtuoso performance” [2]

2011 June 26

Responses and replies to “It was a virtuoso performance” – Viscount Astor on Lord Ashdown on Lords reform


KL — Posted 22nd June 2011 at 9:04 am

If you’re saying that the House of Lords should remain appointed because of its ‘wisdom’, why not apply that to the Commons too then, given its primacy?

Because, despite it’s flaws, democracy is essential for a well-functioning society. But, it does not have to be either/or; we can have both — a House of Representatives (the Commons) and a (true) Senate. And the UK is currently in a unique position to achieve this, but is heading towards throwing this opportunity away because ‘democracy is perfect manna from heaven‘ and ‘everybody else does it that way‘.

And in any case, do you not trust the electorate to choose carefully the people who are elected to the new chamber?

Even if we had an exceptionally wise electorate, your question suggests a free choice. Political parties choose the candidates, leaving a limited, and often poor, selection. Further, as any vox pop will tell you, most of the electorate vote for a party, not a candidate — hardly a ‘careful’ choice. Getting elected is about standing for the right party in the right constituency at the right time.

“I would happily exchange wisdom for legitimacy”
Please tell me you’re joking, Lord Ashdown. What this country needs is another large dose of legitimate stupidity.

That’s a quote from the late Lord Russell. A hereditary peer himself, he put more trust in the electorate to choose correctly than the upper crusts of society.

I am not proposing anything to do with the ‘upper crusts’.
Through their choices, the electorate gave this nation 11 years of Margaret Thatcher and 10 years of Tony Blair. Might it be that Lord Russell’s trust was misplaced?

So the solution to a lack of confidence in something is more of the same?
So are you arguing then that the whole democratic system should be torn up?

No.

What do you suggest as the alternative then – dictatorship? Absolute monarchy?

Actually, benign dictatorship can work quite well, but that’s another story…

We’ve tried both of these before — not sure they were terribly successful for the common man…

The premierships of Thatcher and Blair weren’t terribly successful for the common man either.

Lets step away from hyperbole.

We have an elected house which is not only the primary chamber of legislature, it is also the source of the principal members of the executive. So, through the ballot box, we give 650 people a huge amount of power.

What do they then do with that power? They turn up to important divisions, having taken no part in the debate, and vote according to what the whips tell them to. So the parties choose the candidates (hence the MPs), and then the party leaders tell them how to vote.

I value our democracy, but I do not revere it. It has many flaws none of which can or will be mitigated by another elected house.

My solution — currently unpopular but not unique — is a revising chamber of individuals who carry the qualities necessary to mitigate the flaws in the other house: political independence and ‘wisdom’.

This idea is often referred to as a House of Experts.

It draws criticism along the lines given by William Summers, “…that doesn’t mean a Peer who is a professor in biochemistry is also the best person to make important decisions on law reform.”
But this misses the point: mathematicians, scientists, engineers, doctors, … all have spent their lives having to understand and grasp complex issues quickly and then think very deeply, using the fundamental principles of logical reasoning, to come to the right conclusions. Valuable skills in any environment.

How many MPs fall into this category? Many of those who began in the reasoning disciplines left for a career in politics long before they had time to hone those abilities. Even when they try this approach, it’s rare:
Select committees are pretty much the only place in parliament where MPs do what you’d naively hope they do all the time: sit down, hear a lot of evidence on an important issue, and then have a good hard think about it. — Ben Goldacre

Your lack of imagination at the beginning of that sentence would appear to be resolved by the end: both would have passed had the second chamber been constituted with the same set of political weights — just as wrong but with added legitimacy.
But would they? Would an elected chamber, with 1/3 of its membership due for election, have actually agreed to something there was clear and demonstrable opposition to?

So your argument is that an elected second chamber would have voted against, not because it was wrong, but because 1/3 of them were up for election? You’ve just flagged up another major flaw in our democracy — from both sides of the ballot box — that personal gain trumps doing what is right.
Furthermore, being up for election didn’t stop members of the Commons voting for the war.

Of course, in an ideal democracy, the Great British public would have shown their opposition to the war in 2005. Some did, most didn’t.

Would a Government not have had to consult its members in the upper house before presenting the bill, when the changes could be made?

This should happen anyway, regardless of how the second chamber is chosen.

And in any case, even if they had passed, a bad decision is still a bad decision, no matter how many people voted for it.

True.


Henry — Posted 22nd June 2011 at 11:29 am

It is a truly stunning speech. In particular that line, which Richard Quinn does not seem to concede:
‎’The case is very simple to argue. In a democracy, power should derive from the ballot box and nowhere else. Our democracy is diminished because this place does not derive its power from democracy and the ballot box but from political patronage—the patronage of the powerful.’

In a democracy, power should derive from the ballot box and nowhere else. Dear Lord Ashdown, that is a statement not an argument. How is it “very simple to argue”?

The vast majority of the power lies with the Commons. And I would not change that. The power and responsibility of the second chamber is (or should be) to analyze proposed legislation, spot the flaws, and then to present the suggested changes and the reasoning which led to them.


William Summers — Posted 23rd June 2011 at 10:20 am

Great speech Paddy.
There may well be wisdom in the HoL, but that doesn’t mean a Peer who is a professor in biochemistry is also the best person to make important decisions on law reform. As stated above, if you believe appointed wisdom is more important than democracy,…

No, not more important.

…why does this not also apply to the House of Commons?

Because democracy is essential but flawed. And the flaws cannot be mitigated by a second chamber which is similarly constituted — however much one plays with the popular voting system.


How we make decisions is the most important decision we make.



“It was a virtuoso performance” – Viscount Astor on Lord Ashdown on Lords reform

2011 June 21

“It was a virtuoso performance” – Viscount Astor on Lord Ashdown on Lords reform

…I am not persuaded that there is less wisdom in the 61 second chambers that are elected…

Why are you not persuaded, Lord Ashdown? How is an elected second chamber more wise than an elected first chamber?

It is not wisdom that we lack; it is legitimacy.

Of course it is not wisdom that you lack. This issue is not about what is, it’s about what might be.

“I would happily exchange wisdom for legitimacy”

Please tell me you’re joking, Lord Ashdown.
What this country needs is another large dose of legitimate stupidity.

First, our democracy now and our institutions of democracy in this country do not enjoy the confidence of our people in the way they did. That confidence is declining.

So the solution to a lack of confidence in something is more of the same?

It is said that this House does its job as a revising Chamber well… but is it constructed in a way that would prevent a Government with an overwhelming majority in the other place taking this country to an unwise and, as we now know, probably illegal war? No, it would not because it did not.

This is not a failing in how the house is constructed, rather it is a failing in its powers.

I cannot imagine that the decision to introduce the poll tax and the decision to take this country to war would have got through a Chamber elected on a different mandate and in a different period, or if there had been a different set of political weights in this Chamber from the one down the other end.

Your lack of imagination at the beginning of that sentence would appear to be resolved by the end: both would have passed had the second chamber been constituted with the same set of political weights — just as wrong but with added legitimacy.

And a different set of political weights would be just as effective at blocking ‘good’ legislation for party-political ends.


Petition for a referendum on the future of the House of Lords

2011 May 22

We, the people of the United Kingdom, demand our right to choose the future make-up of the House of Lords. We demand a referendum and enough time and opportunity for a full popular debate.

Sign here: Petition for a referendum on the future of the House of Lords


Telegraph: Nick Clegg’s Lords reform plans criticised by MPs and peers

2011 May 22

Nick Clegg’s Lords reform plans criticised by MPs and peers — By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor 6:45PM BST 17 May 2011

Mr Clegg insisted that “the Commons will retain ultimate say over legislation through the Parliament Acts” and the Lords would “continue to be a revising chamber, providing scrutiny and expertise”.

Dear Mr Clegg

Given that it will be elected along party lines, and consequently the whips system will apply there as it does in the Commons, how will an elected chamber provide scrutiny?

How will a chamber of elected, whipped, party apparatchiks provide expertise?


BBC: Elected House of Lords reform plans to be unveiled

2011 May 22

BBC: Elected House of Lords reform plans to be unveiled (2011-05-17 — By James Landale Deputy Political Editor, BBC News

Comments    * Editors’ Picks    rate this +8
112. Simon    17th May 2011 – 17:49
Get the politicians OUT of the House of Lords. The whole point about it is that it is a different forum to the Commons. Only politicians could possibly think the answer to everything is more politicians!


Campaign suggestion for a referendum on the future of the Lords posted at 38degrees.uservoice.com

2011 January 8

Campaign suggestion posted here: http://38degrees.uservoice.com/forums/78585-campaign-suggestions/suggestions/1359503-a-referendum-on-the-future-of-the-lords

With the words:

A campaign for a referendum on the future of the house of Lords. As things stand, the future of Parliament’s second chamber (the Lords) is going to be decided exclusively by the first chamber (the Commons). It’s like the criminals deciding the make-up of the judiciary. Parliament belongs to the people; *we* should decide its future. To achieve this we must campaign for a referendum. Then we can have a proper debate and vote for the legislature that we want, rather than having their choice forced on us.

 


Comment posted at Liberal Democrat Voice [2]

2010 August 20

Moving to an elected second chamber – a loss of expertise, or just privilege?

Unlock Democracy believes that experts should be brought into the legislative process to consider specific Bills rather than appointed as full time members of the House of Lords.

In the Commons an expert panel was appointed to consider recreational drugs legislation. What they came up with was counter-intuitive and unpopular. So it was rejected. Out of frustration, the head of the panel went public on the advice. Cannabis row drugs adviser sacked

Nothing forces elected representatives to take expert advice. Indeed, nothing could.

Many expert members have a valuable contribution to be made in their field…but as full members of the second chamber they would be expected to vote on all issues whether well versed in them or not. The Astronomer Royal is undoubtedly an expert but does this mean his opinion on penal policy or electoral administration is more valid than anyone else’s?

But, the Astronomer Royal, currently Martin Rees (astrophysicist, President of the Royal Society, Michael Faraday Prize for science communication [2004], etc, etc…) will be a scientist and therefore capable of logical reasoning and critical thinking. How many elected MPs even know what those terms mean?

It is far preferable to have a chamber where expert advice is sought externally as needed…but where the final vote falls to democratically elected representatives of the people, suitably informed.

A nice ideal, but demonstrably unlikely in practice.

This would ensure that the expertise called in was always relevant and up to date and would not mean that experts had to choose between their existing careers and advising on legislation in their field.

This is the best part of your argument. However, I would suggest that the appointed Senators should be senior Fellows in their field and therefore nearing, or at, the end of their professional careers. Such individuals — who have nothing left to prove — are far more likely to call upon younger advisers for the latest up-to-date knowledge, and to accept their advice.

Either way, the future of the second legislative chamber should be decided by a popular referendum and not by the first chamber that it is meant to scrutinize. It’s almost like the criminals deciding the make-up of the judiciary!

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